First off, let me say I thoroughly enjoy Brian’s work over at MGoBlog. It is the only Big Televen blog I regularly read, and Brian’s one of the top bloggers out there. (Wait for it……wait for it……..) But (there it is) I meandered over to his blog at AOL Fanhouse earlier today and what should I read but a post slamming Saban for signing more than the 25 player limit the NCAA allows (Idiocy #1). Oh the humanity!
He went on to say that the reason Alabama’s #1 rated recruiting class was bloated because it contained “large numbers of players with no chance to qualify this fall; it’s all smoke and mirrors.”(Idiocy #2)
That wasn’t his only point, though. He also cited a column by a Montgomery Advertiser writer(Idiocy #3) that supposedly broke down how those 32 players were gonna be able to fit into Alabama’s 85 man roster.
Then he breaks the first rule of football blogging. He uses a post from the WWL to help make his point (Idiocy #4). (Hey Brian, I thought we bloggers were supposed to hate ESPN and everything associated with it.) By using said post, Brian insinuated that Alabama and Saban would make it where players wouldn’t qualify, even if they could, so they could re-sign them next year. (Idiocy #5)
I’m not going to do a rebuttal on all these points, because well, others have pretty much buried Brian’s post. OTS at Roll Bama Roll, Capstone Report, and AOL Fanhouse’s own Pete Holiday all got my back. Pete had an especially funny (not haha funny, think Nelson from the Simpsons) stat that showed that the beloved Rodriguez oversigned on half of his classes at West Virginia.
But what I do want to hit on is the fact that Brian is guilty of the same thing he’s often called out members of the MSM for over at MGoBlog. Knowing not of which he speaks. Brian has no clue how many players Bama signed aren’t going to qualify, no matter how many hacks he references. Even if he did know, he makes it out like it would be the school’s fault for the player not having the grades. C’mon now. How about some personal accountability. He also doesn’t know the severity of the injuries that some players on the team have that would allow them to take medical redshirts so that they can finish their education on the school’s dime. And as far as some players getting told “to get bent”, I’m pretty sure most of them would probably rather transfer to a school where they’ll actually see playing time, than be no more than glorified practice dummies on the scout team. Plus, athletic scholarships are for one year only, not four. Nothing is guaranteed.
I wonder if Brian knows that Saban wouldn’t accept a commitment from one of the top linemen in the Southeast because of numbers. If Saban was indeed the devil, then wouldn’t he have accepted the commitment? I mean, what’s running off one more, right?
At the end of the day, his post is nothing more than a Michigan blogger trying to deflect the deservedly negative attention his shiny new coach is getting. (Hey! Look! Look what he’s doing over there! Look!!) Good thing Brian wasn’t a Bama fan last winter, he’d gone postal.
And being a good Michigan man and all, Brian still holds some deep seated hate for the man that used to coach in East Lansing (that I can’t blame him for, it’s just part of the deal being a fan). But Brian, you should be thankful for Saban. If it wasn’t for him being available while not be available, Bama wouldn’t have been in a position to lowball Rodriguez last year, Rod would be in T-Town today, and you’d be left to extol the virtues of Brady Hoke.
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Rodriguez turned down Bama, plain and simple.
Paint it any way you like.
Rod turned Bama down because we low balled him and allowed WVU to counter offer. He didn’t just say no, his lawyers were in Tuscaloosa after all.
TD, it’s wasted effort. Ghost only believes that negative things can come from Saban and Alabama. His spin of course is righteous whereas ours is delusional.
Egad. I read that article too. There was one huge, glaring error in his logic: both Scout and Rivals account for class size by limiting the number of players that actually earn points for a team. For example, of the 32 players in Bama’s class, Scout will only give Bama points for 25 of them. They simply take their best guess at which 25 will actually be on scholarship and on the team in the fall, and score those 25. To be fair to Brian, I never knew about that either until I happened by an article by a Scout evaluator that explained that point. I even made the same mistake in my own team analysis earlier this year - a mistake that made Bama’s per-player score appear lower than it should have been. I don’t criticize his mistake, but it does affect things and Bama’s only benefit from oversigning is that the point tally can be maximized by choosing 25 out of 32 players to score.
On to the other point in this article (not Brian’s). I was not around during the whole Rod-Bama affair and didn’t keep the tabs on it that you would have. In that context, I offer my view on it. I never once thought that Rod was a serious candidate for the Bama job. From my view, it seemed more like he was either trying to renegotiate with West Virginia or he was testing the waters to see what the job market process would be like. At the time, it just seemed like Rod had far too good of a gig in WV and that the Bama job had too much negativity surrounding it. But take that with a second grain of salt, because Rod’s acceptance of the Michigan job surprised me, so I could very easily be wrong.
But to defend one point of mine, I can honestly tell you that the Bama job did not look like a good one at the time. The fan base was overzealous (death threats? are you kidding me?) and the expectations were unreasonable (can’t have a national championship every single year, you know). Of course that doesn’t represent the whole fan base, but that got so much play on the media that Bama appeared unique in that way.
Oh, by the way, Scout will re-rank the classes in the fall. They’ll see who really show up and who goes away, and we’ll have a much better idea how the classes stack up then.
Hooper, thanks as always. The deal with Rich Rod seems to be that rumors of other offers made to coaches made him feel slighted, so he allowed WVU to counter offer (and we’ll just ignore the fact that he was at the airport when they did it). At the time, we had allegedly offered Spurrier 3.25 a year and then of course 4 mil to Saban even before the coach Rod thing. “Allegedly” being the key word there. It’s fair to say in hindsight that coach Rod’s ego would take that into consideration. Especially considering he took the exact same money that we offered him to coach at Michigan. I don’t recall any actual death threats outside of the usual non-Tide fans accusing us of that being something we are capable of, not something we had done. And again, the expectations thing–like pretty much everything else rumored to be a part of Alabama “tradition”–is greatly exaggerated by those who want to believe the worst about the University. We say “we want to win a championship” and what gets repeated is “listen to those idiots. They won’t be happy unless their coach wins a championship every single year.” Admittedly, all of that could be a consideration for a coach from outside the program, which could be why we hired the one guy whose personal expectations are even crazier than the caricature version of Bama fans that Vol, Auburn, and Big Ten fans keep propagating. Hear that Ghost? I just grouped you in with Big Ten fans.
Dang, that last part of my post was basically just a friendly shot across Brian’s bow.
CD, there are no friendly shots in the world of “manipulating everything your opponent says so we don’t have to feel bad about our fat coach.” Fat coach is of course just a generic term I use that could mean anyone, really.
hooper,
I think the reason that Rich went back to WV was that he felt like he had a legitimate chance at winning a MNC last year. For whatever it is worth almost unanimously every sports writer in Alabama believes that there was in fact an agreement to make Rich the next coach at Alabama.
The problem with the program like WV is that it was going to be extraordinarily difficult to keep the program going on a national level. I think Rich is a really good coach, but in many ways he was lucky to get some of those players. Slaton wanted to go to Maryland, but had his scholarship yanked. White was going to go to LSU, but he decided that he wanted to play QB so he went to WV. You have to wonder how successful that program would have been if it had been unable to get these players. I tend to think he still would have been successful, but not at the same level. He is now going to a school where he can get the athletes needed to run his system at a high level.
I didn’t see any (many) grammatical errors. Trust me, I’d know them.
Rich Rod just held out for a better job.
Ghost, while he linked our post, I don’t think he read it.
He perused it looking for quotes of his own material, just like he did with RBR and the others. He can’t be bothered with “words” or “ideas.” And besides, CD. You’re from the South. You don’t actually have to type grammatical errors or say them. They are there because you are here.
The simple facts you fail to look at are:
1) consistent SEC attrition rates that far exceed the Big Ten’s
2) the failure to address the simple fact Saban recruits and inspires LOI’s that will not be “returned” with attention by the school
3) that many UM fans tend to forget Saban even coached at MSU
On point three, if you knew anything about national school rivalries you would know that few “real” Michigan fans count the UM/MSU as worthy of a calendar circle. A night of binge drinking if UM loses - sure. Worthy of getting the family ’round the television for some good ol’ fashioned football? No. UM lost to Saban in 95 and 99, both away and both squeakers. Saban’s welcome back anytime to Lansing.
AHM,
1) that’s all spin. One guy says Big Ten has higher standards, another says the SEC gives guys a chance at a college education but they have to live up to their end of it. One guy says SEC doesn’t recruit smart kids, another says the Big Ten does things to keep the same kid qualified. Stats are open to interpretation. Always and by either side.
2) This has not happened. What has happened is that Saban has turned down verbal commitments so that those kids can give their LOI at a school that can make room for them.
3) The only reason some Bama fans bring up Saban’s prior relationship with MSU is that we are trying so desperately to find the reason for Brian’s overzealous hatelust for Saban. It’s not just that post. His blog is riddled with exaggerated commentary on the man. Alabama fans in particular are connoisseurs of the art of the rivalry so there is no mistaking MSU as your biggest rival any more than LSU would be ours. Perhaps its that he left after beating Michigan without giving them a chance to redeem it. I honestly don’t know. But something bugs Brian about Saban, and it can’t be a moral stance, because the recent hire of Rich Rodriguez should have quieted that position.
Hooper, that appears to be absolutely incorrect. Can you link to the Scout article which elucidates this point?
I have calced out the average star ratings based on ALL players signed (using 2 stars as a proxy for all players not rated) and, with just two exceptions in the Scout ratings, they match the stated averages exactly. The Rivals ratings were dead on. I believe the discrepancies for Nebraska and BC in my Scout rating calculations are actually due to a mistake by Scout. I’ll forward it to you, if you’d like.
The conclusion is that every player SIGNED (not those expected to be on campus/on the team/qualified) is figured into the ratings.
What makes absolutely no sense to me is this over-signing argument crap anyway. It doesn’t matter how many freaking kids a school signs. They can only bring in 25. Even if they have room on their 85 man roster, they still can’t bring in more than 25.
Andrew, if Scout and Rivals rated classes solely on average star ratings, then yes, you would be right. But they don’t. So guess what, you’re wrong.
Here ya go Andrew…
“1. Scout only counts the Top 25 prospects in the signing class towards it’s Team Rankings.
Some may look at Alabama and say, “well they signed 32 guys, of course they were No. 1.”
True, Alabama did sign 32 players, but Scout only counts the Top 25. Take a look at Alabama’s Top 25. There are 20 players in the Scout 300 (4 and 5 star players), that’s more than anyone else in the country. Miami signed 33, but look at their Top 25. They have seven players in the Top 100. They have three 2-Star players that are bringing down their average star ranking that aren’t even counting towards the rankings.
So, while it’s inherently impossible to tell right now, which of the 25 are going to be on the field next year, Scout limits the effects of oversigning, by not counting more than”
http://usc.scout.com/a.z?s=15&p=2&c=727350
Andrew,
I see that C-daddy already linked, but my link had a slightly different URL to it, so I’ll include it here. Click this sentence for the link. However, I’m very intrigued to see how you got the same rankings for Scout while using all the players. Since I’m not one to publish my email addy on a comment board, perhaps you could forward the data to these fine people here at 3rdSat. They have my email, and could forward it on. (BTW, many thanks for the offer on that data. I’m quite interested. Much appreciated.)
Others,
Thanks for clarifying more on the Saban hiring and the Rod non-hiring at Alabama. You must remember that my take on it came largely from what I read in traditional media. The “death threats” portion was in reference to some articles I had read about the treatment that Shula received shortly before his firing. I don’t have any links to those unfortunately, but even having those kinds of stories out and about would figure negatively on any other prospective coach’s opinion. Personally, I wouldn’t expect most Bama fans to be like that, but the fan base is large enough that having a few nutjobs would be expected. Just like any other major program.
c-daddy and Ghost,
I took the highly scientific step of copying this post into Word and using the spelling/grammar check on it. Out of that, I found:
+ Word doesn’t know words like “Saban”, “Fanhouse”, “MGoBlog”, “oversigned”, and “Bama”.
+ There are two grammatical notes:
In the first parentheses in the first paragraph, Word suggests “wait(s) for it” for the second “wait for it”
The sentence “How about some personal accountability.” is a sentence fragment. Perhaps revising to end with a question mark?
That’s it. No reason to worry about the errors there. Of course, that’s all assuming that you believe Word’s ability to check, but this level of grammar check is as much as you’d expect from the majority of students at any major institution.
In Brian’s defense,
He does make some good points about having more people listed on the roster and submitting LOIs than there are available roster slots. Somehow, the numbers will have to match up. Most likely, there will have to be a lot of JUCO holds for players - particularly the academically suspect ones in the new class. That’s not necessarily detrimental, as many of them wouldn’t even be playing next year anyhow.
In defense of SEC recruiting,
The region that the SEC recruits in makes a huge impact on academic eligibility. I don’t want to get into the details, as sociology is neither my strength nor the point of this blog, but I will ask this. If Michigan were located in a region of the country with the high school academic record and cultural standards of the South, would they be able to maintain their academic image on the football field, or would they recruit in the same manner as SEC and ACC schools? The Big 10 enjoys a much more academically sound recruiting base, which is neither the fault of the SEC nor the doing of the Big 10. But it makes a difference. The differences in recruiting can neither be attacked nor defended without considering the source of the recruits, and it’s an ugly piece of business to get into. (And I say that as a non-Southerner.)
Now, having said all that, I will say that I currently think Saban is a snake oil salesman and is willing to play any games he has to in order to gain an edge. I’m willing to let him prove me wrong, but his past history and his NFL-esque workaholicness and competitiveness lead me to believe that he places winning over integrity.
Oh, one more thing for the triple-post. Bama fans really do need to watch out for one thing in all this. Somebody needs to pay close attention to the roster as it stands today, and the roster as it stands on the first gameday this fall. There will be significant differences, and the reasons that many of those players leave will be important to note. Brian’s point may not have been stated with the greatest clarity in his AOL post, not with the greatest temperance of emotion in his blog post, but he’s right that the numbers don’t work. Track them throughout the offseason, and it should be very telling as to whether Saban’s playing unethical games or he knows something the rest of us don’t.
For the sake of U-Alabama, and more importantly for the sake of the kids involved, let’s hope it’s the latter of the two options.
Great points, hoop. I think/hope that Saban already knows how all the numbers will fit. About two months ago I did a post stating the very fact that as many as twelve (no way it’s that many) would probably be “encouraged” to transfer to see playing time at another school. Saban basically gave all the underclassmen one year to buy into “the process”. If the coach came to me and said, “Son, you’re probably not gonna see much, if any, playing time in your career if you stay,” I’d probably go.
Here’s that post: http://3rdsaturdayinblogtober.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/saban-doing-a-little-offseason-yardwork/
Hooper, for all the media allegations that he’s dirty, there’s never been a single player reporting that he felt shorted or mistreated by Saban. Not at Alabama, not at LSU, not at Michigan State. The media had a wild crush on him until he made them feel stupid, and now they have a vindictive streak that is fed by his lack of patience with them. And this brouhaha is nothing more than an extension of this. The same media that declared he’d never leave the holy of holies to return to the vulgar college game are the ones that said he wasn’t good enough to coach in the NFL after the fact. Then they said he couldn’t recruit in a state where he had instate competition. And now that his success is an indication of something else dirty. That’s what all of this is, “if I make a statement and you make me wrong, I can either admit I’m wrong or vilify you for it.” I’ve never met a journalist who ever thought they were wrong.
tfit,
That’s a large reason why I’m leaving the question open in my mind. I long ago learned the value of a “journalism filter”. On most topics of any degree of controversy, I choose to wait a while and see how things play out. For example, when the Duke Lacrosse story broke, I reserved any opinion until after the initial media blitz, and saved myself some serious backpedaling because of it. In the long run, Saban will be seen for who he is. Right now though, if somebody wants to think of him as clean, they can find reason to do so. If they want to think of him as dirty, they can find reason to do so. My opinion at the moment is one of a lack of trust mostly because of how he handled the Miami departure. There’s no ‘good’ way for a coach to handle that kind of media inquiry, but there are far ‘better’ ways. But that’s really not a debate worth opening up here. In short, I have serious reservations about him, but I have in no way closed the book. Time will reveal.
I do know however, that he’ll use any tactic he can to gain an advantage, be it recruiting, coaching, or square dancing. That doesn’t necessarily mean he’ll cheat, but it doesn’t allay any fears of cheating either. It just means that his competitive streak is absolutely relentless.
C-daddy,
Thanks for the post link. You’ll want to be careful, though. That concept opens up the debate of whether an incoming coach should honor the commitment of the current players and work with them for the first few years, or encourage them to leave in order to bring “his” players in faster. Your argument is for the latter, but many people will view that as a breach of the commitment of a university toward a player. I’m not going to get involved in that argument either way, but that’s going to be one you’ll have to watch out for, particularly if 3rd wishes to contend with Brian regarding SEC recruiting strategies.
Hoop, I see where you’re coming from. Rivals will call it unethical, fans of said team will call it trimming the fat. But you never hear a public outcry that it’s a breach of commitment when a player transfers of his own volition because he doesn’t fit the style of the new coach, ala Mallett.
Should athletic scholarships be any different than academic schollies, where one has to maintain a certain GPA to keep it?
We generally refer to scholarships as “free rides”. They are not.
cd,
I’m really enjoying this conversation. This is a topic that has far too many people wrapped around the axle right now, and it’s really nice to have the debate within reason. I thank you (and all the other Bama fans around here) for being willing to talk this through, even though I’m sure the emotions are flying high over it.
As far as Mallett’s case, I can see your point. If Saban’s bad for being willing to take scholarships away from upperclassmen for his new class (assuming that he is willing to do this), then Mallett’s bad for walking away from his commitment to Michigan. The big difference is that Mallett’s departure does not reflect poorly on Michigan in any way; they’re not the ones ending the commitment. So that argument becomes a comparison of Mallett vs. Alabama. (The counter is that Michigan, by changing directions as radically as they have, abandoned the type of football that Mallett expected. But who really wants to get into a Bama/Mallett discussion? Me neither.)
Many questions remain unanswered. Does the “renewable” scholarship have an inherent promise of being renewed, so long as the kid maintains his academic credentials and follows the code of conduct? Or is that scholarship reviewable on a yearly basis by an additional criteria - the worth of that kid to the team? And how would that compare to an academic scholarship? For example, if a kid got a full 4-year ride to MIT, and then next year MIT became a liberal arts college, could MIT withdraw the scholly in favor of a liberal arts student? Would that kid have any obligation to stay at MIT? Would MIT be renamed MEH? (Massachusetts Emporium of the Humanities)
The ire has died down quite a bit. But it was good for business. Maybe you can talk Joel into engaging in a blog fight with us next week.
This may be a harsh stance (or it may just be a fan taking up for the coach of his team that is accused of something he may have to do in the somewhat near future), but seeing that these players are on athletic scholarship, it leads me to believe that in return for providing for their education, along with keeping their grades up and staying out of trouble, they are, in some way, obliged to perform to a certain athletic standard.
hooper, I like your MIT example, but I’ll say this: if MIT dropped their math department (or pro-style offense) then those students would either leave because they wanted to study math, some would stick it out and change their major to English, and some would lose their scholarships because they can’t keep up in the new curriculum that’s being taught. Considering how much hand-holding athletes already get, I don’t now, nor have I ever had a problem with taking a scholarship from a player who isn’t performing on the field. If players leave, pay close attention to the GPA’s of the kids who are cut. I doubt you see someone who is benefiting from his time at school let go. Going to college is a privilege. If I was laid off from my job and was unable to pay my tuition, there would not be an outcry when the school didn’t let me register for the next semester, nor should their be.
It is a worthwhile debate but it has unfortunately been colored by the national and irrational hatred of Saban. Here’s a case in point that is no more speculative than all the talk about him taking scholarships away from “deserving” individuals. Let’s say he cuts two players because of violation of team rules. The immediate media assumption will be that they didn’t do anything that major and were only sacrificed as a way to make room for the new guys. Now lets say that it is later discovered that those players were involved in drugs. The new media stance probably still maintains the “convenience” angle but will add that Saban is so cold that rather than mentoring two kids who obviously needed guidance, he cut them. Nevermind that no one knows anything about what happened. Nevermind that no one who has ever worked with him or for him thinks he’s heartless. The worst anyone who knows him can say is that he works too hard and expects the same from those around him. That’s stressful, not evil. He’s never been caught cheating in any substantive way (go ahead and talk about spring contact) and none of the programs he left were later caught in any form of cheating that originated during his tenure. But the reputation is that he’s dirty. That’s where all the ire in this comes from. It’s not about what the Big10 thinks regarding oversigning, it’s about yet another unmerited attack on Saban. The crux of the argument is about what Saban (and about a dozen other coaches) might do in the future, but we’re going to go ahead and hate him now for good measure.
There’s really nothing I can add here that wouldn’t be beating a dead horse…
But when did beating a dead horse become so inappropriate?
The horse is dead. It couldn’t care less if you are beating it.
When I was a young lad, dead horse beating was not only acceptable, but it was encouraged. When a horse died, people from all over would come to beat it. It was good clean fun and no-one got hurt. Some people worked for months to ensure that they had the finest stick for beating the deceased equine. Children clad in their finest garments would gaily dance around and sing traditional songs while the men took turns pounding on the carcass.
I get teary-eyed just reminiscing.
JJbamaman, you aren’t from the Dominican Republic by chance?